AUKUS is working, we can already hunt Chinese subs better, says Defence Industry Minister Pat Conroy

Australia and its allies can hunt Chinese submarines better as a result of AUKUS, Defence Industry Minister Pat Conroy has revealed.

Speaking exclusively to The Nightly from London where he has been in talks with his UK counterpart, junior defence minister Luke Pollard, Mr Conroy also declared that critics of Australia’s quest to design and build a new nuclear-powered submarine gave him “the irrits” and were wrong.

AUKUS is the $368 billion program to acquire nuclear-powered submarines, firstly from the United States and then from the UK, first announced in 2021.

This week Mr Conroy announced another $310 million for UK company Rolls-Royce to build the nuclear-related components for the boats.

A second goal of the defence technology sharing agreement is for Australia, the UK and United States to jointly develop new weapons and capabilities.

But five years on, governments have had nothing to show for this second part until now.

“We’ve developed systems to share algorithms for our P-8 fleets together to make sub-hunting more effective. So we’ve got more effective P-8 submarine-hunting fleets because of the AUKUS Pillar Two work,” Mr Conroy said.

“The P-8 Poseidons, so they’re maritime fleet, so they’re more effective as a product of AUKUS Pillar Two.

“We’re making advances in autonomy, particularly autonomous underwater warfare, due to the trials where we’re working together. That has been really useful, as we develop both (underwater drones) Ghost Shark and Spear Tooth.”

Mr Conroy also declared that the ambitious attempt to co-design and build a brand new class of submarine with the British company BAE Systems would not fail.

Mike Pezzullo, who wrote the 2009 White Paper and was most recently the Secretary for the Department of Home Affairs, said reporting what was taking place “behind the veil” on AUKUS was difficult.

“Pillar Two advances are likely to be highly classified (that is a function of the technology areas that are being explored), and I suspect that there is far greater progress that is being achieved than can be revealed publicly,” he said.

“That makes the politics hard, because politics is all about public communication.

“However, it does not take away from the fact that advances are being made - without the public being any the wiser.”

Earlier this year, retired Rear Admiral Philip Mathias, a former director of nuclear policy and nuclear submarine commanding officer told The Nightly that AUKUS with the UK was destined to fail because the British did not have enough manpower to deliver the boats.

Pressed about this analysis, Mr Conroy said it did not reflect the facts as the boats would not be built in the UK but in the shipyards in Adelaide, for which the Government has just announced $3.9b in funding ahead of the South Australian election.

“Our submarine will be built at the yard in Osborne. Obviously, the reactor components will come from Rolls-Royce, and they’ll be common parts in the supply chain that will be either built in Australia or the UK and be shipped to the two shipyards for consolidation, but we’re building ours in Australia,” Mr Conroy said.

The minister said that his recent visits to BAE’s Barrow shipyards and Rolls-Royce’s nuclear production plant in Derby, England, had also demonstrated the project was on track.

“I’ve seen our first two boats under construction right now,” he said.

“The reactors are the things that you start on first with nuclear-reactor powered boats. Construction has began on the boats we’re receiving in the early 2040s.

“We are hitting every major milestone of AUKUS, like the thing that gives me the irrits is that AUKUS has been declared dead, like 15 times.”

US hasn’t offered us to build Virginia-class subs

Australia’s attempts to acquire two types of nuclear-powered submarines have led to calls that just one version should be considered, given Australia’s lack of experience and past capability problems sustaining the Collins Class fleet.

But Mr Conroy said this was not possible as the Americans had not offered Australia the option to co-build submarines like the British had.

“I don’t think the United States has — I want to be careful here — as far as I’m aware, that hasn’t been canvassed,” he said.

“Or of interest. Their offer of selling us Virginias was very generous of them, and it was after a strong work together, but that’s about plugging the capability gap rather than as a long-term solution for AUKUS.”

AUKUS about conflict, not China

Mr Conroy also refused to directly link AUKUS to China, as US President Donald Trump did when asked during his White House bilateral meeting with Prime Minister Anthony Albanese.

“It’s about us projecting the greatest deterrents to avoid conflict. I won’t get into that particular endeavour,” he said.

Mr Trump said that AUKUS was about deterring China from taking Taiwan but that it would ultimately not be needed because China’s President Xi Jinping would not move on the self-governed island while he was president.

Asked why he was reluctant to state the true reason for AUKUS, Mr Conroy said that he would not engage in “megaphone diplomacy”.

“What we’re focused on is deterring conflict,” he said.

“We’ve seen the biggest military buildup in the region since 1945. We’ve seen China developing their military without transparency and strategic assurance.

“And we say that publicly, but this is about giving the ADF the best equipment it can have deter conflict with anyone, full stop, end of story.”

Former Prime Minister Scott Morrison who co-authored AUKUS with former US President Joe Biden and his former British counterpart Boris Johnson in 2021, praised Mr Conroy for pushing back against the “small and defeatist mentality that says Australia and the UK are unable to achieve this ambitious goal.”

“The Minister is right to point out that we can do this and indeed we must,” he said.

“We can’t treat failure as an option. Defeatist narratives are not only incorrect but give comfort to potential adversaries, like China, who want to see AUKUS fail.

“The Minister is also right to highlight the significance and indeed primacy of the AUKUS submarine build - first in the UK where the design and build will be proven and then repeated in Australia.

“Attention is often focussed on the US Virginias, however the even greater task is the sovereign build of our own AUKUS submarines, that will add to the joint capability of our combined efforts.

“We also cannot allow the narrative to take hold that AUKUS, and the submarines in particular, is their entirety of our defence response required to address the increasing threats we will face, not just now, but well into the future.”